TustinDad
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Orange County
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Message Posted: Sep 8, 2012 12:39:38 PM
DanMtz wrote: "Whatever. It sounds like the refinery doesn't want to pay the going price."
Exactly. From the article: "as oil companies rapidly move to seize new export markets that pay higher prices for crude"
Now, that does not really match the feelings around here that, if we just get the XL pipeline, we will be flooded with cheap oil and our gas prices will go back to $2. Welcome to reality, boys and girls.
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DanMtz
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Oakland
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Message Posted: Sep 8, 2012 11:07:35 AM
Whatever. It sounds like the refinery doesn't want to pay the going price.
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jrs4125
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Indiana
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Message Posted: Sep 8, 2012 10:17:07 AM
Dooooooooh
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drpepperTX
Champion Author
Texas
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Message Posted: Sep 8, 2012 9:25:17 AM
LOL, the 1975 EPCA, that placed strict restrictions on US oil exports must have gone right over NHL's head! Leaving NHL no retort but to attack other GB members for a differing viewpoint and their actual knowledge of the facts!
At least Martinman acknowledged his ignorance below, something NHL seems incapable of doing.
The FACT that some don't have any idea of the laws on oil export and having the reality pointed out is considered an "attack" by NHL is rather telling.
Personally, I'd rather have an informed opinion, it lends much more to credibility. Then one doesn't have to run and hide when another asks a question.
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NHLiveFree
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New Hampshire
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Message Posted: Sep 8, 2012 1:48:00 AM
The note that it is "just business" is much like the old Nuremberg Trials defense that "I was only following orders".
Please stop all your pointless and unnecessary attacks on other members docp. Your egotistical personality and proclivity for stalking other members here is now legendary and shall be placed in the GB Newsville Hall of Shame!
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NHLiveFree
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New Hampshire
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Message Posted: Sep 8, 2012 1:37:52 AM
At least some of your 'facts' are a..backward VV.
The pipelines from Portland, Maine, actually South Portland which is a separate city, to Montreal was constructed very quickly during WWII by order of President Roosevelt to assure our Canadian partners and neighbors had an adequate supply of crude oil for the war effort. Two of the three pipelines along a shared route, which happens to cross the NH White Mountains, are still in use for Montreal area refineries. Please note V..V.. that the flow is from Maine to Canada, not the other way! Please also stop the needless attacks on other members. Thanks Martinman!!!
[Edited by: NHLiveFree at 9/8/2012 1:38:49 AM EST]
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Martinman
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Mississippi
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Message Posted: Sep 7, 2012 8:47:52 PM
Was it really necessary to attack another forum member here, simply because they posted something you do not agree with ?
"Brent crude" is a benchmark light crude oil from the North Sea (United Kingdom), not from Saudi Arabia. Saudi crudes are generally heavier, and have higher sulfur content. That's one of the reasons why Brent has historically commanded a higher benchmark price. Light sweat crudes are easier to refine than heavy sour crudes, and yield a higher proportion of gasoline to diesel per barrel.
I was not aware of the Exxon redirect during the Arab Oil Embargo. Interesting, since I was always under the impression that all tanker deliveries were contracted before shipping.
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VomVom
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Calgary
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Message Posted: Sep 7, 2012 4:43:11 PM
Bluebird1, you are totally confused about the Canadian O&G industry, about how gasolines are priced in Canada, and about how the Canadian oil production and distribution systems work. Your post of Sep 7, 2012, at 9:23:58 AM was totally incorrect and showed gross ignorance.
The differences in gas pump prices are primarily because of the differences in the price of crude used as feedstock and in the differences in provincial gasoline taxes, PST and other taxes. BC has very high gasoline tax. It also has carbon tax and transit tax in some cities. Ontario collects more taxes on a litre of gas than Alberta does. Go to the top of the Torontogasprices.com website and click Gas Price 101 and Canada Fuel Tax Rates. The information is all there. Also, the breakdown on the cost of a litre of gasoline is posted on every single pump in Canada. Check it out next time you fuel up.
After the Arab oil embargo to the US and after Exxon diverted 2 Imperial Oil Ltd. oil tankers destined for Canada to the US, then Prime Minister Trudeau ordered the construction of an oil pipeline from Edmonton to Sarnia and onto Montreal. It was to guarantee supply to Ontario and Quebec. The pipeline was later extended to Portland, Maine. After the embargo is over and things settled down, Ontario and Quebec refused to pay the toll to ship oil from Alberta. They bought light oil from Saudi Arabia and other Middle East producers. The Edm to Mtl pipeline has been operating only at less than 1/3 capacity and Canadian taxpayers are still paying for that pipeline. It is only during the past few years that WTI has been priced lower than Brent because of the glut of oil from N Dakota and the lack of pipeline capacity. However, most of the refineries in Ontario, Quebec and the maritime cannot process oil sands crude. They do not have the upgrading units. That’s why they have to continue to buy more expensive Brent from the Middle East. It is only recently that Ontario proposed to upgrade their refineries to process oil sands dilbit and keep the refining jobs in Ontario instead of the Northern Gateway Pipeline. They sure as hell did not care when Alberta oil were at par with other OPEC oil.
The Trans Mountain pipeline from Edmonton to Burnaby has a capacity of over 300,000 BPD. It is more than all of BC’s needs. That’s why the pipeline ships a mix of crude oil, gasoline and other refined products. All unused excess are exported to the US west coast. The issue with the Chevron’s Burnaby refinery is that it is very old and does not have the capability to refine oil sands crude. It needs light oil or Synthetic Crude Oil as feedstock. Alberta’s conventional light oil production has been in decline and most of them are contracted to refineries in Sarnia and Montreal. Chevron does not want to sign long term deals with Kinder Morgan to secure capacity on the Trans Mountain Pipeline nor secure long term supply of Synthetic Crude from Alberta producers. It is a bad business decision and now it backfires. Chevron now cries foul and wants to use political pressure to force the NEB to bail it out. I would tell Chevron to go fly a kite and suck a lemon.
[Edited by: VomVom at 9/7/2012 4:49:35 PM EST]
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drpepperTX
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Texas
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Message Posted: Sep 7, 2012 2:24:08 PM
It is amazing the ignorance about export of US oil.
TXryder and TwinfanMN certainly expose their ignorance! "If legislation would enact laws to restrict domestic oil from being exported until an abundant level is allocated and available for domestic use only" moans TXryder!
Well, TXryder, that law has been on the books since 1975! LOL.
Crude Oil Export Restrictions
Crude oil exports are prohibited by statute from The Energy Policy and Conservation Act of 1975 (P.L. 94-163, EPCA) which directs the President to restrict the export of crude oil. In simple terms, with the exception of certain cases where crude oil exports are permitted in statute: If it is shipped on the Trans-Alaska Pipeline, of foreign origin, or is from the Strategic Petroleum Reserve, EPCA prohibits export of domestic crude oil.
Come on folks, get familiar with what really happens in our country.
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BurntOrange
Champion Author
Austin
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Message Posted: Sep 7, 2012 2:20:32 PM
TXRyder wrote:
"USA is third largest global producer of crude yet we struggle with inventory counts and victims to global pricing manipulations."
---------------------
True, but this pipeline is in Canada.
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twinfanMN
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Minnesota
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Message Posted: Sep 7, 2012 12:38:37 PM
I agree TXryder but it will never happen. There is too much mioney and greed involved
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TXryder
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Texas
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Message Posted: Sep 7, 2012 12:35:55 PM
This has been my gripe for long time....
Failed government!
USA is third largest global producer of crude yet we struggle with inventory counts and victims to global pricing manipulations.
If legislation would enact laws to restrict domestic oil from being exported until an abundant level is allocated and available for domestic use only,,then there can also be separate pricing standards that are much lower than the global pricing. Its called the gov putting its citizens first.
But nooo, manipulating trades occur, exporting for greed, and then the country has to turn around and import oil for its use. Sounds stupid to me.
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tgusa
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Virginia Beach
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Message Posted: Sep 7, 2012 12:27:58 PM
smart
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Taxrefugee
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Arizona
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Message Posted: Sep 7, 2012 12:20:48 PM
Chevron needs to practice the free market principles it advocates when it's selling..if you want something like crude oil, you'll have to outbid your competitors.
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Cothrom
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South Carolina
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Message Posted: Sep 7, 2012 11:52:04 AM
Really don't have to say it, people on West coast really get hit hard with prices for gasoline. Some group really reaps the money coming in there (and everywhere else in the US too)
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Martinman
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Mississippi
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Message Posted: Sep 7, 2012 11:50:40 AM
And TransCanada expects people to believe the Keystone XL pipeline will be any different - anything other than an export tool for Canadian tar sands crude oil, whether as refined crude oil products or actual crude.
By the way - for those of you that did not know, the pipeline that is currently delivering Alberta tar sands crude to the West coast, is the Trans Mountain pipeline owned by Kinder Morgan.
Yes, the U.S.-owned company Kinder Morgan.
Yes, the pipeline concern founded by former Enron executive Richard Kinder, one of Kenneth Lay's former college buddies. Don't you just love corporate nepotism ?
Yes, the same pipeline concerns that has had several significant pipeline spills in the Vancouver, British Columbia area - hence the large-scale public opposition in British Columbia to any new pipelines to transport crude oil for export.
This is just another example, of how the industry has no national allegence. If more money can be made exporting, than supporting the people of the country from which it is extracting their natural resources, why does anyone expect any of them to do what is right for the country within which they operate?
Hey, after all, its just business...
[Edited by: Martinman at 9/7/2012 11:57:21 AM EST]
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bluebird1
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Toronto
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Message Posted: Sep 7, 2012 11:23:58 AM
This just highlites a growing problem in the oil/gas ind. in Canada...with all the oil we export, we've become a net gas importer in last few yrs (maybe back a bit further but..). Pipeline runs right near refinery but not used for refining & yet BC has very expensive gas yet right next to huge oil reserves (in Alberta). East coast now gets half or more oil from Europe/middle east at inflated prices (hence maybe the reason for several refinery closures over last couple yrs. We do have oil pipelines that reach into western Ont. & I'm sure these could be extended & pipeline capacity increased.
It leads to diff. in gas prices of $2 or more /gal Cdn between regions & keeps our gas prices up around the $6 /gal mark - that's right our gas has increased quite a bit compared to US & the US are even complaining of rip-offs - think how we in Canada feel.
Along with this is lost jobs, less independence & even more volatility than in the US - just think if West is exporting gas too, then how much gas is imported in Eastern Canada & that likely comes from the US which is now being hit with N.E. US refinery closures yet they likely supplied us.
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crep1291
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Ottawa
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Message Posted: Sep 7, 2012 11:19:51 AM
So the refinery preferred to pay top prices for middle eastern oil, shipped all the way across the pacific, instead of competing for the Alberta oil that's gushing out of the pipeline??? WTH?
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pilotmass
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Boston
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Message Posted: Sep 7, 2012 10:49:43 AM
All going to China I presume
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VomVom
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Calgary
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Message Posted: Sep 7, 2012 10:49:01 AM
Every manufacturing operation has to manage its supplies and sales. Every refinery signs long term contracts for its feedstock, pipeline capacities and sales deliveries. Chevron chose not to. It wants to undercut its competition by not bidding nor signing long term contracts. When its plan backfires, it cries to the NEB and the government for help and for guaranteed supply. If Chevron were allowed to continue its current practice, then everyone would do the same and the system would collapse. I would tell Chevron to go fly a kite.
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drpepperTX
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Texas
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Message Posted: Sep 7, 2012 10:47:18 AM
I don't think so jimgraham. More like a word from market ignorance.
We have seen no change in the Canadian oil discount to WTI with the reversal of the Seaway pipeline from Cushing to the Gulf coast refineries and analysts have already pointed out that with the increased productions from the US Bakken fields the glut in Cushing will still remain. With U.S. oil production expected to grow by 2 million barrels a day between now and 2015, US pipeline systems will have trouble to keep pace with the increased production. This will create bottlenecks north of Cushing that will maintain or even widen market discounts for Canadian oil with respect to WTI.
The Keystone XL project should alleviate some of the bottleneck at Cushing, but even that can't be expected to begin until 2015 at the earliest. At which time Bakken production will have increased greatly as well and new supplies will be coming to the Gulf coast from the Eagle Ford and Permian Basin fields in Texas. Because of the bottlenecks north of Cushing the northern leg of the KXL will increase supply of this cheaper Canadian oil to Midwest refineries as well. It's gotta go somewhere.
Canadian oil will always be tied to WTI which will remain at a discount by most analyst's projections for many years.
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playtimeCLE
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Cleveland
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Message Posted: Sep 7, 2012 10:32:28 AM
Canada would rather run a pipeline across our country then across their own to feed their own starving refinery.
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mastermariner
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Texas
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Message Posted: Sep 7, 2012 10:26:06 AM
K
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tnfran
Champion Author
Arizona
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Message Posted: Sep 7, 2012 10:20:28 AM
NOt good.
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jimgraham
Champion Author
Akron
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Message Posted: Sep 7, 2012 10:05:28 AM
A word to the wise.
If the Keystone pipeline is approved and built - well -- they are experiencing what we will get here in the midwest - either sharply higher oil and gas prices and / or a shortage of crude for our refineries.
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MontanaMac
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Washington
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Message Posted: Sep 7, 2012 9:39:59 AM
What a biased opening line; quite a word picture the author is trying to create.
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bbchevy
Veteran Author
Ontario
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Message Posted: Sep 7, 2012 9:33:05 AM
ok
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Hawg1408
Veteran Author
Alberta
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Message Posted: Sep 7, 2012 9:21:08 AM
Keep and use it at home.
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leraar2
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Massachusetts
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Message Posted: Sep 7, 2012 9:06:35 AM
another reason to impose EXPORT CONTROLS and TARIFFS.
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wildddkattt80
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Phoenix
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Message Posted: Sep 7, 2012 8:52:05 AM
Ok
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merlinCO
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Colorado
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Message Posted: Sep 7, 2012 8:50:34 AM
Nothing like taking care of yourself. Greed, what do you think the reason for the XL pipline is? Let them refine the fuel in Canada.
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